Hartsburg gets axed for Murray’s failures
Let me start off by saying that I wasn’t a huge fan of the Hartsburg hiring as I don’t think Hartsburg had done anything at the NHL level to show that he is a true top level coach, something that the Senators definititely should have been looking for. But he was available and relatively inexpensive and maybe that is why Murray hired him. But this is seemingly Murray’s second bad coach hiring after John Paddock failed a season ago and was fired less than 12 months ago.
But Murray’s bad decisions go beyond coaching. Some of his player personnel decision have been poor as well, particularly when it comes to his defense. Bryan Murray took over for John Muckler just after the Senators lost to the Anaheim Ducks in the Stanley Cup final. That Cup Final team defense consisted of:
Wade Redden
Joe Corvo
Tom Preissing
Andrej Meszaros
Anton Volchenkov
Chris Phillips
That was a pretty solid defense group with a mix of offensive and defensive defensemen. This years defense crew consists of:
Filip Kuba
Alexandre Picard
Chris Phillips
Anton Volchenkov
Jason Smith
Brian Lee
Brendan Bell
One season ago Jason Smith was seeing his ice time diminish in Philadelphia (yet he earned a sizable contract in Ottawa), Picard couldn’t play as a regular in Tampa last year, Bell couldn’t make the Phoenix Coyotes and Brian Lee played mostly in the AHL. And to top it off, Chris Phillips has started to look old and slow this year and sports a teams worse +/- at -20. To make matters worse, Joe Corvo is playing quite well in Carolina and Mike Commodore, who Murray acquired for Corvo and then let go as a UFA, is playing his best hockey ever in Columbus.
Prior to the recent collapse of the team on the ice, the Senators were primarily an offensive oriented team who utilized an excellent transition game and power play to dominate opponents. They would pressure the opposition with speed and quickness, force turnovers, and then mount a quick counter attack. But with much less speed and skill on the back end, that quick counter attack game plan fails before it can even get started.
Craig Hartsburg attempted to convert the Senators into more of a defensive oriented team and to some extent he succeeded as the Senators have given up far fewer goals this year than last, but the problem has been that the defensive focus combined with the lack of skill on the back end means they just can’t score enough goals.
In under a calendar year the Senators have fired John Paddock, seen Bryan Murray take over as interim coach, replaced Murray with Hartsburg and have now fired Hartsburg. That is three coaches, and three coaching failures, in under a calendar year. When will the time come when owner Eugene Melnyk realizes that the problem isn’t coaching but rather player personnel and the management group that brings in that player personnel. But maybe he is still in denial.
other
David Johnson
Ted,
Scouting is exactly that, scouting. Playing trumps scouting everytime, and even scouts say that. The league is full of players who have exceeded their “projected” potential, and often times being pegged with potential can be a matter of exposure, and group think.
Exposure – Paying in the right league, with the right team, at the right time can give a player a great deal of exposure, and that can create a buzz.
Group Think – Nobody likes to be the voice of the minority, and once a player gets some strong reports, other scouts often go along.
Elliott has never had either of these, but if you look at his record, both in the NCAA, and in the AHL, he’s been a very good goaltender. The fact he has carried this into the NHL speaks volumes, and to deny his potential because he never had exposure, or group think, is akin to the King wearing no clothes.
I’m not saying Schneider is a bust, but the fact he wasn’t successful when called up, and was demoted in favour of LaBarberra…?
Elliot won the NCAA title, was a Hobey Baker finalist (many said he would have won if the voting were done after the frozen four), was NCAA 1st team All-Star, and, when going head to head with Schneider in the A, was named Starter for TEAM USA, and was the AHL player of the month. Those are real accomplishments, not predictions/hype/hope.
A bird in the hand Ted…
Any GM, any talent evaluator…you base this on what? The fact saying so suits your opinion? I think you’re making a lot of assumptions for people who aren’t here commenting. I’ve heard plenty of talent evaluators saying the opposite.
Gerald, this argument is clearly going nowhere…however, statistics at the lower levels are not the be all, end all, as I’m sure you are aware. Totally random example, but Corey Locke can dominate the junior levels and still be drafted in the middle rounds because he is not projectable. It’s the same with Elliot; sure, he could be a decent goalie and he may end up better than the higher touted prospect like Schneider, I geuss we’ll see. Heck, Brian Lee was more touted than Alex Edler two years ago though Edler is a potential all-star according to some while who knows about Lee (though I still believe Lee will be a good NHLer).
Well, to say Elliot has carried his good minor league stats into the NHL is an exaggeration after that one brutal start the other day. His numbers are mediocre now – they may be below average after another bad start. To judge people after 10 games is completely dumb – Elliot carrying his minor league stats to the NHL “speaks volumes” – do u think anyone here believes that u would be using such a small sample size for any other reason than to support your argument- why do u do it? Because it “suits your argument”? Well, Lee has to be a complete bust because he has carried his poor AHL season into the NHL – let’s not look at the rest of his career..,my opinion is dumb because I am a Canucks fan? That “seals it”? Seriously, that is such excellent evidence to support your arguments…let’s see if u can guess which talent evaluators said these wonderful things…
“Fine Gerald. You win. Murray is a genius, he has made no mistakes, and he has the Senators on track to win a Stanley Cup.”
“Seriously, take your ball and go home in triumph Gerald. Your superior arguments clearly win the day.”
“I think we all need to take our rose-coloured glasses off on this one (myself included) and call a spade a spade.”
Now Gerald – I am sure u don’t care about my opinion, but I have actually supported some of the things u have said – I don’t think anyone else here has agreed with some of your points as much as I have – but now it is just getting to the point where nothing u say can be wrong; Sundin is a bad signing, but spending over 9 mill on alfie next yr doesn’t need analysis because, why, his cap hit is lower? Spending $20 mill on one line can’t be the reason they are sucking because I have no proof – There was nothing else but Sundin for us to spend our money on at this point – but, wait, he has sucked for 10 games so it was horrible
Elliot, Lee and Zubov are the next Crosby, Whitney and Fleury – we don’t need to use the secondary sources of scouting reports because u r such an expert – Elliot’s strong minor league numbers suggest he’s a solid number 1 goalie while Lee has had poor numbers this year, but he has hype from being a high pick so he is fine.
I can be a complete prick and just insult u in every single post as well – u notice how nobody else here agrees with your moronic opinion…
Ted,
He has a winning record, on the second worst club in the NHL, and a 2.55 GA/.910 sv%. Sure it’s only 10 games, but it’s 10 games in a worst case scenario, and that is worth noting. I don’t make it up, like saying what others think, in order to fabricate legitimacy, I’m using facts, not conjecture, hearsay, or hyperbole.
In the WSH game Elliott wasn’t pulled because of his play, he was pulled because of the teams play. He had actually made some stupendous saves, but was being hung out to dry, so Hartsy pulled him. He had already face 16 shots in 22 minutes!
Did you see the game? 2 of the 4 were PP, totally unstopable (Green frm pt, screen, OV, cross ice feed). The third was a tip out front, a result from 2 terrible defensive play s by Lee at the side of his net, and Phillips out front, neither checking their men. The fourth was OV, screened between Kuba’s legs, as he was inexplicably backing in, instead of challenging.
Ted, I’ve said I may be wrong, but I’ve supported my views with fact, actual arguments. You’ve stated an opinion, then failed, or refused to support it. Why? It’s not because you don’t have the time, or why would you keep posting? One can only assume it is because you cannot support it, therefore, who is the one refusing to concede, the one supporting his arguments with fact, or the one refusing to support his argument with fact? If you were a casual observer, with not interest either way, would you adhere to the argument entirely bereft of anything but conjecture, opinion and hyperbole?
Show where the cap distribution has precluded Murray from making moves.
Show where signing Sundin for 8+M has been good for the ‘Nucks.
Show where Schneider has proven to have more potential then Elliott.
These aren’t unreasonable expectations, unless of course you feel your opinion is somehow synonymous with fact.
Did I ever compare Elliot, Lee of Zubov to elite prospects? If not, why say this, unless, once again, you intend to bolster the legitimacy of your baseless opinion, by using hyperbole to discredit mine.
So, I should concede because 3 people on a hockey forum, who have not provided a shred a supporting data, disagree with my well founded argument? Well then, how can I argue in the face of that degree of logic?
Gerald…The cap distribution or poor money management or whatever u feel like calling it has the Sens near the cellar – why do I need to prove this when it is an indisputable fact that they are neat the bottom? if u would like quantitative evidence, check the standings. Did Bryan Murray inherit a lot of bad contracts from John Muckler? The sens are near the cap without too much flexibility…your solution is to assume that Kelly won’t be back next year because his 3 year commitment will disappear because u want it to…
So far in the Canuck game, Sundin has 3 points – of course, this is his 11th game in a canuck uniform and I know u only like sample sizes that are 10 games or fewer. He also had 2 points in a win in his 10th game on Tuesday…but, wait, I’m a Canuck fan so that “seals” that I know nothing – terrific logic – I hope u r not a university student, u won’t convince any professor that their argument is weak because they support a hockey team that u dislike
Go to hockeyfutures or another site if u need an education on Schneider and elliot’s potentials…doug maclean the other day calls elliot a backup at best…bob Mackenzie said earlier that while Schneider is not carey price, he is still a hell of a prospect and has true number 1 potential…
Congrats for using so many words to convince nobody of anything on a single post…I’m sure we shall battle again on another comment in the future…u may have the last word if u so desire…
Ted, you have to actually show correlation in order to support your argument, not point to two entirely independent variables, and expect the rest to fall in place. I could just as legitimately point to coaching, or any number of other variables. Simply show how the current cap situation precluded Murray from improving the club. If you cannot do that, you have nothing but a naked theory.
As for Sundin, time will tell, but one game is not much to hang your hat on. Unless of course, you think Vermette, who also hat a 3 pt game is worth 8+M.
You seem to think how much of cap is available after a deal validates a players value, to me, the player should earn the salary they make, and Sundin has never been worth 8+M, let alone now at 37.